Finance and Education
Some of the comments I have heard since Thursday presentation is centered on the notion- “You are suggesting closing schools because of financial concerns not education reasons” I do not understand this comment. Education and money are intertwined; there are similar to ying and yang. Both are dependent on each other and one cannot exist without the other. Across the State communities vote on school budgets. Programs exist because communities financially support them. Without the financial support programs are eliminated. Therefore when there is a possibility of losing programs because of fiscal concerns it is logical to look for alternative methods. As I have said many times- The choices are pretty clear- we pass budgets close to the roll over budget thereby preserving program or we close schools and reconfigure to preserve programs. Both of the choices are focused on Educational Programs. We must strive to find the balance of the ying and yang.
I undertand that most people feel that the elementary schools are the most important part of our childrens education, but let’s not forget what the Middle School offers our children.
It gives them a chance to grow up a little bit, to handle hectic schedules, to deal with many different teaching styles, to incorporate clubs, sports and drama into their academic life, to transition to new friends, to learn to make the right choices, to sometimes make mistakes and find the right path again BEFORE heading off to High School.
When do we allow our children a chance to grow into independent citizens. The Middle School provides a wonderful environment for them to grow and I think it’s importance in the school district should be considered whether it is 5,6,7 or 6,7,8
My daughter is now in the 8th grade…and yes … I have a 2nd grader who would be effected by the decisions we all face. My nephews have gone thru the school district as well as the reopening of Cross Street and having to transition out of Meadow into Cross. Ultimately what they remember from school now that they are graudating from college is the football team, the concerts, the plays, the challenging academic courses that they were offered and strived in and getting into the colleges of their choice because they had such a well rounded high school experience.
We need to look at the full impact our choices make…..for those of you who have not yet experienced the higher grades and programs that the district offers you don’t truly understand what is at stake. Before you know it your children will be out of the elementary school and will be in the middle school and high school.
I agree our little ones need the least amount of transitions and as parents we need a clear plan to move forward. But in coming to your decisions or suggestions understand the importance of the Middle School and it’s role in your childrens social and academic life.
The Middle School just received two acknowledgements that it is a school of excellence. The first award was from the Academy for Character Education, the second from the State Education Department of NY for the multi-tiered instructional and behavioral support and intervention program.
We need to think hard about realistic solutions and hope that we can move forward in a way that is productive and responsible for everyone in the community. There is no simple solution to this situation.
Responding to Jules’ question about what is more important – educating children or after school programs? I don’t think there is a choice. One could not exist without the other. They are connected and together they provide the highest level of education to our children. Cutting the after school programs/activities will take away from the attractiveness of our fine school district and will hurt the children and their future opportunities. In addition, they promote a well rounded education to our children, extend what they are learning in the classroom, teach them life learning skills, give them opportunities to support the community and social causes and promote self-confidence and social growth.
My family and I attended the High School play, Rumors, which was fantastic. It had the quality of a Broadway show – amazing performances. This past week we attended the Middle School Musical, Suessical, and the District String Concert — unbelievable performances. Watching our students play with Mark Wood was an experience words cannot describe and a lifetime memory for all of the students who participated (and their families, too). Watching the students perform with such passion made us so proud of each and every student. Mark Wood said that in his opinion our district was a “top ten” in Fine Arts and teacher quality……and he said he has traveled to many school districts throughout the country and beyond! What a wonderful compliment! Our Marching Band won the State Championship. These are just to name a few of what our students have accomplished because of the intertwined educational AND after school activities which enhance the overall education of our children……we cannot have one without the other if we are going to provide the best education to our children.
Keep in mind that colleges base their decisions not only on academics but on a student’s involvement in extracurricular activities and volunteer service.
Taking the risk of having to cut programs is not putting our children first. I strongly feel it is time to move our district to the cluster structure which will benefit our district financially, educationally and socially as they are all connected.
Solely removing extra-curricular activities would not reduce the budget enough to get near a 2.5% tax levy
Dear Dr. Nagler,
This is my first post here.
In your professional opinion, (and parents should answer as well), if you HAD to choose between educating the children or providing after school type of activities, which would be more important?
Obviously this is a rhetorical question because education comes first and foremost. Therefore, to help with the budget, cut the activities. I know first hand that that would be a major disappointment and hardship and students and families will argue to the contrary. However, all this discussion about closing schools and lay offs, especially during our financial crisis is (in my opinion) the wrong direction to take. Education is #1, then comes the activities.
All the scenarios and questions raised in this section of the blog have been fully explored by the community over the past two to three years. The current situation is based, in part, on the current recession which is severely impacting many of the community’s residents and businesses. However, the discussion of the cost of our current school district configuration has been on the table for discussion for some time.
The essence of the problem here, a problem that Dr. Nagler has repeatedly pointed to in this and other sections of his blog and at our meetings, is that if the community does not support keeping the current configuration and votes down the budget twice, we will be forced to cut 3.5 million dollars from the budget this year. Even though we can absorb that cut this year we won’t be able to do it again. The following year, when we lose federal and state aid money, we will not only be forced to close schools but will have to cut non mandated programs as well. These include pre k, sports, music, before and after school programs, etc… Adding to the problem we will have no lead time in which to do it.
If it is inevitable that we have to close schools then it should be done in an orderly, planned, and fiscally responsible fashion in order to minimize the impact these changes will have on the education of the community’s children.
I have not seen a sufficient groundswell of support for maintaining our current configuration. What I have seen and heard are many comments from many people suggesting scenarios that would in some way satisfy their personal preferences, without necessarily considering the impact on the rest of the school district’s educational program. While some of these scenario’s could be integrated into an overall plan, many cannot. In the end the Board of Education will have to make a decision based upon what it thinks is best for the school district community as a whole. If it does its job right many of you will be unhappy but the educational interests of the children we serve will be protected to the maximum extent possible during these uncertain economic times. In the absence of a clear mandate from the community the Board will have to make its choice as best as it can.
Hi Jennifer
With all due respect, I am a little confused with your post. If we were to move K and 6th grade back into the individual schools, how would it be feasable to have Jackson’s 1 & 2 at Willis. The way I understand this is that Jackson Avenue Students would go to Jackson for Kindergarten, then to Willis for 1st & 2nd grade, and then go back to Jackson for 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th grade. This sounds like an awful lot of moving around for anyone none the less for one group of students. It is equity amongst all of the district’s students that we are all looking for. If I miss understood, please let me know. This is in no way intended to argue about one school against another.
And if nobody has noticed, Chaminade is an all or nothing entity. They will not rent, they will only buy to increase their “Empire” and personally I would rather pay taxes to maintain a building to educate my children. Being a Mineola resident I feel that Chaminade owns enough of our town with no tax bill attached.
I’m sorry correction to that last configuration – put K and 1st from Jackson in Willis and keep 2-6 in the main building of Jackson – Kepp other elementary schools K-6 and keep 7th and 8th in the High School – Close the Middle School.
I’m sure if Willis is suitable for pre-K and K then it is not that much of a reach to put K and 1st in there….
Sure – converting Willis would cost some money – but I can’t imagine it would cost as much as adding literally “additions” to two elementary schools –
thanks for the feedback
Correct. Willis was not designed for 1st and 2nd graders and therefore not appropriate for those grades. Please note that converting Willis into a different type of space would cost money.
Correction- …does not HAVE sufficient
Hi Dr. Nagler,
Hope you don’t mind, but I want to respond to Jennifer Schrader’s post. Willis Ave does not sufficient grounds for 1st and 2nd graders during recess.
I agree with the mineola parents who are questioning the possiblility of using the extra space at the highschool.
What about the possibility of moving 7th and 8th to the highschool, moving 6th and K back into neighborhood schools, eliminate pre-K and give Willis to Jackson as a space for their 1st and 2nd graders – which would relieve over-crowding at Jackson. This would also allow us to keep our neighborhood schools AND we could rent or sell the middle school (perhaps to Chaminade who seems to be eager to take over space south of Jericho Turnpike). It also would eliminate the need to make our other buildings bigger and therefore no construction costs. PLUS…LESS TRANSITIONS FOR KIDS!!!!
I know people have concerns with 7th and 8th being in the highschool, but if they were teamed and in one portion of the building, contact with older kids becomes much more limited. Kids would have no problems taking regents courses in 8th grade. Intel science research programs could easily be added to 7th and 8th grades. It also is a more common reconfiguration to see 7-12 than splitting up the elementary grades. Plus certification issues with teachers is a non issue.
Just another suggestion. I think it wold be helpful to move these previous posts in with the others – there are a lot of good suggestions in this section.
Dr, Nagler can we please reconsider other reconfigurations that lessen the number of transitions for children???
I believe it is in everyone’s best interest if you moved this blog to the “school closing comments” blog, as there are some important points noted here.
How can we not consider moving 8th grade to the high school, 5th grade to the middle school and Kindergarten to the local elementary schools as it was years ago. Administration can return to the MMS as it did years ago. AND WE CAN RENT OUT WILLIS AVENUE AND MAKE LOTS OF MONEY FROM IT.
If Jackson Avenue is filled to capacity you can change the boundaries so this isn’t an issue.
Remove the Pre-K program from our district. Willis Avenue is the perfect location to rent to a business who can then offer day care for their staff.
To the contrary- I don’t believe I banter at all. When people ask a simple question I try to answer it. If you are giving an opinion on how to go about a reconfiguration I post it. You previous post was filled with many statements and I thought your questions were rhetorical. If you wish to know why we need to keep Pre-K- my answer would be because it is a valuable program – just like any other. As for- Why is it free? Because we are a public school system and are forbidden (by law) to charge for a program we offer.
Dr. Nagler-
You seemed to banter with the other posts throughout the day yet ignored mine. I would appreciate a response to my earlier comment and also offer the suggestion that the 200-300 children the HS could accommodate “fairly easily” could be done by housing the Kindergarten program as it did years ago. Thanks.
In its heyday the HS held 1600 kids. Now it houses less than 800. There have been many mandates since the 70’s that require dedicated space (i.e special education) and we have additional dedicated spaces (computer labs). But my guesstimate is we can accommodate 200-300 more students fairly easily. Office space is different because it is a dedicated space. I would guess we could accommodate 4-5 rooms for offices by moving there existing purpose. If you like pleased call my office- it would prove a more fruitful exchange.
Thank you. What capacity is the high school at now, and how much can it hold in total?
Dr Fowler spoke about capacity. That is the amount of time classrooms aren’t used. In a high school it is not unusual to have a room used for 7 or 8 periods out of a nine period day. Currently our HS uses a room for 5 to 6 periods a day. To create empty space you would need to reschedule the HS and increase the number of periods a day a room is used thereby creating empty rooms for other purposes.
Dr. Fowler didn’t calculate the amount of “available” space at the high school?
There is no ‘empty” space at the high school. Rooms would have to be ‘re-purposed’ in order to create space.
what is the square footage of the empty space at the high school?
The Central Office was not at the High School; it was at the Middle School. Any space at the High School would have to be ‘re-purposed’ if it were to accommodate central office.
Dear Dr. Nagler, what is the square footage of empty space at the High School which I believe to be Administration’s old space?
1)As a family that lives on the (very) far end of the district, my children have ridden the bus to go to Willis Ave, MS and HS for over 20 min each way. I always felt that was very long but for MS and HS but they were older so it wasn’t as bad. When Willis was opened and my 4 year old had to be on the bus 40 min a day, I thought that was too much. By making Meadow 1-2 that would add 3 more years that this neighborhood’s children have to take the bus for, what I feel, is too long. I pay over $11,000.00 in taxes (around $7,000.00 in School Tax) and my children are on a bus for almost 5 hours a week! That might not sound bad for a rural community but not Western Nassau and given the price I pay for living here!
2)What about the hardship it causes parents to make playdates for younger children who are dependent on us to drive them places? When my daughter was at Willis, she would get home at 3:45 and I would have to drive her 15 min to Mineola to visit a friend because she didn’t have any kids from closer neighborhoods (Albertson, Williston Pk) in her class. Again not as bad for the older ones but when a mother has 2 or 3 little ones at home- to drive 30 min round trip (2x’s) for a playdate is hard.
3) Why do we need to keep the Pre K program? Or at least, why is it free? As you know, there are very few districts that even offer it and if they do, there is a fee. Have you looked into the savings from (or the money generated from) that.
4) From the moment Willis was opened it has been a white elephant to this district.
a)15,000 sq ft for 34 people? Seems like a lot of wasted space!
b)That “playground” is not suited for 4- 6 year olds. I don’t know what the administration (and Board) was thinking when they made those plans? Maybe they weren’t thinking of the children at all. Dr. Nagler, you have kids, so you know that they need to run to get their energy out. How can they do that on a 50 X 50 piece of property, half of it covered by playground unit, and between 40-60 kids in it at any given recess.
c) Have you ever looked outside your window at dismissal? Jackson Ave is a safety hazard! So many cars and buses and people running across the street. Again, I’m not sure what administration was thinking.
The administration seems “hell bent” on keeping Willis but the parents of the district’s children have always thought otherwise.
We need to keep the community schools and rethink what should actually happen to our district.
Dear Dr. Nagler,
Has anyone given any consideration to all the apartment buildings that Mineola is planning on building? Where are all the children who potentially will be living there go to school if we start closing schools? Also, if the district plans on making money from renting out space in these school buildings, shouldn’t you start with the newest one, which is in the best condition (Willis Avenue, of course). Trying to rent out school buildings that are aged and already not in the best condition, as well as building additions onto said buildings, seems counter-productive to me and many others!! PLEASE reconsider this! Thank you
1) Re-zoning does very little to help the staffing issue. When you replicate the same program 4 times it is costly. Remember our total enrollment 1-5 is approx. 1,000 kids. Dividing that number by 4 still generates 4 small schools. 2) OK 3) It depends on what number you use for price per square foot. Our architect is calculating all costs at $500 a square which is definitely on the high end. 4) We wouldn’t put children in any danger! 5)Would not be my recommendation, but yes that option exists. We aren’t at that step yet. The first step is to decide whether or not to close schools. Then we would ask which one(s) and how to do it. 6) Without a contingency budget of 0% your suggestion is well worth a try. The gamble here is “what if the budget fails?” If we had to cut 3.5 Million this year we will survive BUT any wiggle room for the following year is gone. Being proactive now gives us options into the future.
Dr Nagler,
Thanks for your prompt responses.
1) I understand Jackson probably cannot handle the increase but if done in conjunction with re-zoning of home schools does this option have the potential to meet the budgetary requirements?
2) Thanks for your offer and yes I would be interested in seeing the study – can you email it to the address provided.
3) I have heard range between $4m and $8m being – why such a large variance?
4) When I mention detrimental impact of construction, I was referring more to the environmental hazards of doing construction while children are in school. eg asbestos
5)So there still is an option to close 1 or 2 schools and not cluster?
6)I understand the enormity of the budget challenge we are all facing and very much appreciate the hard work and effort gone into presenting the harsh facts and a potential solution. Unfortunately, do not see the benefits of going down this road and am very willing to work to convince the stakeholders that in the long run our children and school district will be better should we pay to support a budget that will keep local schools open,
Answers:1) That option was explored by the consultants and there was an overwhelming objection to 7-12 HS. In addition I do not believe all of our elementary schools can handle the extra classes from the 6th grade. I am certain Jackson Avenue cannot. 2) I study was done by Western Suffolk BOCES as part of the consultants work; I can send you a copy if you are interested. It shows a flat growth rate. 3) The estimate was given by our architects. Once a decision is made further investigation will be conducted. Need to know the full scope of the work before we proceed. 4) Of course. A building may have to be closed and then reopened. We aren’t at that stage yet. 5) It doesn’t require clustering, again we haven’t reached that discussion yet. 5b) I disagree that ALL research points to poorer performance. Ms. Goffman and I will give a report on the options on Thursday Feb 4. 6) It is virtually impossible for me to give an accurate estimate. I would encourage individual taxpayers to examine their bills from last year to this. How close is the increase to 2.46%? 7) I like the way you phrased that. That is the whole point of the discussion. As I have said many times- if the community is willing to pay for it, cuts wouldn’t be necessary. BUT- this year we are faced with a 0% contingency budget. IF the budget fails it means 3.5 million worth of cuts.
Dr Nagler,
I would appreciate if you can please respond to the following questions regarding the proposal to close 2 elementary schools.
1. What other options besides closing 2 elementary schools have been analyzed. Has the option of closing the middle school, extend existing elementary schools to 6th grade and High school to 7 & 8th grade been explored?
2. What is student growth rate and over how long of a period is assumed in the cost /benefit analysis for the proposal to close 2 elementary schools?
3.What are the assumptions used to estimate the capital costs required to support this growth. How many construction cost estimates were obtained in the due diligence phase of this proposal?
4.Does the the detrimental affect to students of doing this construction during school year factor in?
5.Assuming that closing 2 elementary schools is the most conservative approach to secure the budget, why does this solution require clustering of students?
5. What additonal benefits do you expect to get from clustering – all research points to poorer performance of students which is detrimental to the school district, to property values etc in the long run.
6. What is the $ amount of the increase that the average taxpayer would be required to pay under a scenario where no schools are closed?
7. Have you received feedback from the Mineola community on the appetite for supporting such an increase.
As a parent with 2 young children I would be willing to tighten my budget in other places and pay the increase in taxes to keep schools open. This is the sentiment of many parents I have spoken to. In my opinion, everyones effort would be more wisely focussed on gaining support for the budget by advertising how great our school district and teachers are rather than proposing closing of any schools.
There are five unions represented in the district. Administrators (principals, ap’s, Instructional leaders) Teachers, Clerical, Aides and Bus Drivers/Custodians. If all 5
Unions agreed to take a freeze (no step increases) that would save approximately 2.4 million dollars. I will discuss with the BOE on Thursday negotiating with the unions. Closing Willis Avenue will not save money in staffing. After the reduction of a principal and clerical there would be an increase in teachers due to the way children move to the neighborhood schools. In addition, the neighborhood school never had a full day K programs, so pre-K and K would not fit in two of the buildings. The second floor is approximately 15,000 square feet and there are 34 people that work here.
Dr. Nagler
We kindly await a response to the following questions.
If the teachers union is willing to freeze their salaries where does that place us with the budget? You have already said you were willing to freeze yours and administration salaries to set an example for the union. Yet, you haven’t answered the question given earlier this week. What is the scenario if the teachers are willing to work with our community to keep everyone where they are (including their co-workers and bosses), by freezing their salaries? We read in the paper every so often of big corporations having to lay off hundreds of workers. Some of these same companies attempted to give themselves raises in the midst of all this which was looked upon poorly by everyone. Due to the current economic crisis we are facing, is it possible to ask the union to work with us and freeze salaries temporarily, which appears to be some of the highest paid in our state?
Also, as you have mentioned in the past with regard to who would be laid off, last one in is last one out, then considering the poor planning of putting our last building up, doesn’t it make most sense to get rid of THAT building before any other. THAT building being Willis Avenue (no parking, no working cafeteria, no playground for the children to exercise in).
Last question, with regards to the second floor of Willis Avenue, how many people are housed there to work during school hours? And, what is the square footage of the second floor?
These questions have been asked before and have not been answered. I look forward to your reply, and thank you for allowing this open dialogue of communication amongst the district’s community.